Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Department of Human Services
442 Civic Center Drive, Augusta
April 16, 2008 – 4:00 PM
Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Natural Resources Service Center
6 Beech Street, Hallowell
April 16, 2008 4:00 pm
A meeting of the Department of Marine Resources’ Lobster Advisory Council (Council) was held on this date at the Natural Resources Service Center, 6 Beech Street, Hallowell, Maine. Council members attending this meeting included: Chair Bob Baines (Non-Zone Lobsterman), John Drouin (Zone A), Jon Carter (Zone B), Dan MacDonald (Zone C), Ted Hoskins (General Public Member), Gerry Cushman (Zone D), Dana Rice, (Eastern Dealer), Larry Knapp (Zone E), Elliott Thomas (Zone F), Jim Henderson (Zone G), and Peter McAleney (Western Dealer Member). Council members not present included: Dana McIntire (Non-Zone Lobsterman) and Cappy Sargent (Non-Zone Lobsterman). Commissioner George Lapointe, Deputy Commissioner David Etnier, Deirdre Gilbert, Sarah Cotnoir, Colonel Joe Fessenden, Melissa Smith, Kathleen Reardon, Togue Brawn and Donna Hall of the Department of Marine Resources were also present. Others present were: David Cousens, Patrice McCarron,
J. Munsey, Jim Merryman, Ted Bear, Lyman Kennedy, Jeff Putnam, Gina LeDuc-Kunty Claire Grindal, Annie Tselikis, Ryan Libby, Adam Libby, Mike Libby, Greg Turner, Bill Coppersmith, John Hathaway and Dane Somers from the Maine Lobster Promotion Council.
The meeting convened at 4:10 p.m.
1. Welcome and Review of Agenda
2. Election of Officers –
Elliott Thomas and Jon Carter were on a nominating committee to make recommendations to the Lobster Advisory Council and recommended to move the slate of officers.
MOTION: (J. Carter and E. Thomas) To Move the slate of Officers. Unanimous.
3. Approval of Minutes (March 19, 2008)
MOTION: (J. Carter and D. MacDonald) To accept the minutes of the March 19, 2008 meeting as written. Unanimous.
4. New Business
a. Maine Stewardship Council
Commissioner Lapointe introduced John Hathaway who is working on the Governor’s committee to explore the possibility of Marine Steward Council (MSC) certification for Maine’s lobster fishery, and said that the Maine Lobster Promotion Council is also involved. John Hathaway said the MSC process is moving along and that a pre-assessment will begin sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, most likely around the middle of May. Dana Rice said he has some concerns about the MSC and asked if this pre-assessment will be made public. Dana said these are issues that need to be discussed publicly with the Department of Marine Resources and the industry, one issue is the unit of certification; we are interested in basically Maine’s Area 1 fishery.
J. Hathaway said what we are trying to do is an outreach process and get everyone’s opinion; there would be a lot of concern if something negative comes out of it, and it will be a confidential document until released by the committee. Our committee decided to start with a clean slate on the pre-assessment and get into it as soon as possible so we can focus on what the issues are. I am a lobster processor coming in to the business about two years ago. I sell to people all over the world and I have noticed that the lobster business has been going down a little bit. We as an industry need to expand our business and our product. It’s simply supply and demand; people need to see something that shows that this is a certified sustainable fishery. Fishermen continue to pay more money, we hope that everyone will step forward to work on this and I am in hopes that we can get some harvesters on this committee to take a look and try to increase this market.
Dane Somers said he agrees with everything that John has just said and that we do need some more people on this committee most importantly some harvesters and we will take some nominations from MLA as to who the harvesters should be. Patrice McCarron had some excellent suggestions as to who should be on the committee. If the working group is expanded it will help move the process along quicker we also need to get some funding lined up. Patrice said she had suggested to J. Hathaway that there should be three harvesters and some more dealers; the MLPC should also be on this committee.
J. Hathaway said there are more people in this room that know about the lobster industry than I do and we want peoples’ opinions; people need to come that are committed to better things for the industry. Jon Carter said we have a new stock assessment coming out and if it comes back poorly and we are trying to certify Maine lobsters; will that have an effect on it? Commissioner Lapointe said that if the ASMFC says the assessment is bad we have bigger problems, we are interested in the fishery of Area 1. John Hathaway said this is about Maine. Bob Baines said they will separate it. George said the results of the preassessment will show the impacts on the environment and fishery management and if that’s ok, then they will focus on the Gulf of Maine.
Bob Baines asked are we talking about adding new members to this committee now or after the pre-assessment is done. George said the pre-assessment will be underway, and the committee will give advice as we move forward. The Governor’s office called and asked who should be on this committee. Bob asked whether the committee has input during the pre-assessment. John Hathaway said the assessor will go through their check-list, all we are trying to do is to get it defined to that point, get the ball rolling, we are open to having more people on this committee and if harvesters give their input then we will meet one of our goals. John Drouin asked before we give a green light/yellow light on this is it possible to get more input. Dan said we need to be clear that this is a pre-assessment. George asked if it is possible for us to get copies of what has been done so far. Dane said yes it is. Pete McAleney asked who is “they”; certified guys from where? George said they are London based, North American based. Pete asked how we know what their standard is. John Hathaway said you’ll know if you meet their standard. George said they have a North American office and hire people who know the fisheries locally. Pete said this is going to cost money. Bob Baines said what it will cost is how we do business; this group will come in and tell us to do XYZ and there could be a significant cost if we don’t meet their standards.
John Hathaway said this is voluntary and you don’t have to do it; let’s say the fishery is well managed and all big stores like Wal-Mart, etc. say they won’t buy our product unless it is certified. Bob said there are good reasons to do it but we need to take it slow. John Hathaway said we need to get the ball rolling and we will know what the issues are. Gerry Cushman said as long as you go through this Board, I have no problems with this assessment, I do agree with Patrice that we need to get more people involved in the process. Larry Knapp said Governor King went to Japan, many people thought if it came from Maine it was good, if we buy in to this we will lose that it was from Maine. John Hathaway we have heard about this and this will come to the LAC before it goes any further. Dane said apparently the LAC recommends this. Bob Baines said it’s already in the pipeline; we will have an expanded committee as soon as possible. John said he was in full agreement. Commissioner Lapointe said that any recommendations can come to me through email at george.lapointe@maine.gov.
b. Seed Fund Recommendations
Deirdre Gilbert handed out the proposed Seed Lobster Program revisions to the Lobster Advisory Council and a list of the pounds that have been participating in this program that was requested by Jon Carter at the last LAC meeting.
Deirdre explained the way the program works currently and the proposed program revisions. She said that in the past couple of years this program has cost more than the $25,000 the LAC has allocated, and that the price paid to dealers can be skewed by the high price/low volume weeks; in the last 2 years we have been able to take the money from the discretionary fund to pay the extra money. In March, Dana Rice had suggested and the LAC voted to remove the 2000 lb cap. If this cap is removed we will have to rely on the pound owners to tell us the capacity of their pounds because we have no ability to verify or dispute the number; this is very difficult to administer. Deirdre asked the LAC how they want the Department of Marine Resources to approach this problem.
Jon Carter said he was on the original committee and given the fact that we’ve only gone over the past 2 years, he would agree that we should stick with the 2000 lb cap and asked if we need to change the allocation - can’t we bump up the $25,000? Deirdre said our estimates kept creeping up; they are very unpredictable. Bob Baines asked if we change the season of the program and keep the 2000 lb cap, how much money do we want to recommend for the program. Jon said it would be easier for the DMR to deal with the 2000 lb cap; they don’t know the capacity and have to rely on pounds. Pete said one problem you will have is people now put females in the pound, cull over and keep the good strong ones.
MOTION: (J. Carter and J. Drouin). To put the 2000 lb cap back in place and remove the 1%. Unanimous.
Council members started discussing the comparisons of the price paid by the Seed Lobster Program to purchase the seeders, and the price calculated by the Landings Program on the handout. Cathy Fetterman said that Heidi Bray gets a report every month from the Northeast Lobster Coalition. Deirdre said we have been paying the average of the price for the months January-October. Bob said no one is putting lobsters in pounds in December.
MOTION: (J. Carter and E. Thomas). To go with calculations on the landing program to include the months September through December. Unanimous.
Bob Baines asked how much money do we want to allocate or do we want to leave it alone. Deirdre said we have proposed $45,000 on this handout – this would leave $9000 for each zone to decide on research, or the purchase of females. We polled all the zones and Zones A and C want to go with the purchase of female lobsters all other were 50/50 split; it is difficult to find dealers to participate in this program. We have had to go to Marine Patrol to help us find dealers; with this proposal we will have you guys help us find dealers in your area to do the female purchase for liberation and you could negotiate the price. Gerry Cushman said he does not like doing this in the fall; it is a much nicer product if it is done in June and in June our coop will work with the program. John Drouin said he agreed with Gerry that to maximize the dollars you would want to do it in June.
Sarah Cotnoir explained that the DMR needed to discuss with the members of the council the concerns that Carl Wilson has with funding the research done through his current programs and advised the LAC that Carl was not able to make the meeting tonight but she would teleconference him in. Carl said he usually makes recommendations for the research money but wanted to hold a turn, in case we did not get any Federal funding. He was looking for some support from the LAC for hold over money for research projects. Bob asked Carl what programs are used in the stock assessment that will not have funding. Carl said sea sampling and port sampling. Bob asked what the annual funding is for those programs. Carl said sea sampling is around $120,000 per year with 1-2 technicians and several remote contracts up and down the coast. Gerry asked how important is this stock assessment. Carl said if there programs were reduced or eliminated we would be in trouble. Jon said he strongly supports these programs; it is what has saved us and we should do what we can to support them. Elliott said we should keep them going; it can only help us.
Bob asked if we should set aside $25,000. John Drouin said that is too low; we don’t know from one year to the next where the money is going just to research; Carl’s number one priority is to keep these programs going. We need to re-assess the critical pieces that we need to do; what the minimum requirements are and give support from the LAC. Bob asked if there was any chance that the zone councils can re-visit this issue. Jon said maybe we should all meet again and ask the zones to re-visit their allocations. Sarah said if the female liberation starts in June that will not work.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and E. Thomas). To support the sea sampling and port sampling programs for the upcoming year with whatever money is available. Unanimous.
Carl said he did not want to keep the programs limping along; we need to find the money somewhere to fund these programs. David Etnier asked the LAC if they want the DMR to do as we have in the past couple of years in terms of supplementing the allocation to purchase seed lobsters if more than $25,000 is submitted by the dealers. Jon said this is nothing more than a business move, this money is coming from the industry; I don’t think we should borrow the money to do this.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and J. Drouin). To cap the seed fund out at $25,000. Unanimous.
c. Effort Reduction Questionnaire
A draft copy of the Effort Reduction Questionnaire was given to members of the Lobster Advisory Council. Bob Baines said two weeks ago half of the guys sitting at this table worked on a questionnaire and Carl Wilson spoke with a guy who does questionnaires and was told that you cannot put information on a questionnaire. Gerry asked what gear has to do with it. Bob said it is specific to what we are looking for. John Drouin said this is Carl’s way of getting at the questions; it’s their way of trying to find out if people are knowledgeable in the fishery. Gerry said he thinks there are too many questions. Dan MacDonald said he thinks these questions are a little vague.
Larry Knapp said he was concerned with the latent effort question; I may want to jump on a tuna boat. John Drouin said this is a questionnaire; this will come back as a recommendation, will this go out to everyone? Sarah asked if the council had an opinion one way or the other. John said just commercial license holders. Sarah said surveys would be all commercial license holders but questionnaires should go to everyone. Most council members said it should go to everyone. John Drouin said he thought commercial only; how many people fish over 500 tags. George said it is the context of the questionnaire that is important; we need to know what everyone thinks. David Etnier said we have the ability to analyze the data so you can look at it and know where it came from.
John Drouin asked what does this do to the two conservation areas along the coast. Bob Baines said that’s another discussion; we as a group cannot say how a reduction plan would look. Patrice said question #2 misses the mark, it talks about what we are doing now, how well do you understand this question. David said we need to re-word this question. Larry said vertical lines is a whale issue. Jeff Putnam said he thinks this should be a zone issue; you should ask each zone. George said the intention is that this should be a statewide questionnaire. Gerry said I’m on a zone council and I’m comfortable sending this out. Elliott Thomas asked if we can make the results available by zone.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and J. Carter) To send out the questionnaire to all fishermen the way it is worded except for question # 2 to be re-worded. 10 in favor, 1 opposed.
d. Discussion on ”Lower of Limit of Licenses” Regulation
This discussion was tabled until the next meeting.
e. Three Mile Line
David Etnier told the Lobster Advisory Council that when we saw the “Three Mile Line” on your agenda, we asked Seth Barker to use his GIS skills and draft a map of the zone lines, the current three-mile line, an 8-mile line, and a 12-mile line for consideration as an F&G pilot program only. The map was shown to the LAC and others in attendance. Zone G has had issues with Zone F fishermen fishing in Zone G, and what DMR is proposing is that both Zone F & G fishermen could fish 100% of their gear outside of this line (whichever one is adopted) and that the "49/51%" requirements would remain inside that line; these two zones have been struggling to find a solution to this conflict for years. This is what the DMR thought of - George asked the Council if there is merit in this proposal?
Elliott said Zone F really doesn’t have any winter bottom now; no place to fish in the winter. Jon said we talked about this issue years ago; adding mobility with the effort in the industry. At the Zone B meeting last night we talked about double tagging, we want it; with the stock assessment we had too much effort, we’ve dropped 20 million pounds.
George asked the guys in Zone F should we explore this. Does it have merit? Jim Merryman said I want to clarify one point; I would be happy to stay in Zone F year round, but I found out this year I can’t do it, there is more gear conflict, it’s all shrimp bottom. I have to be able to go someplace - in Zone G there is no western boundary; I don’t know why you’re so bent on zone lines. George said I think we can explore it, ask the zones what they think and bring it back here. Elliott asked if this could be done by rule-making. George said yes it could, then outside of that it would be open bottom. J. Merryman said if you have an Area 1 permit, you can fish; you are discriminating against your own fishermen. Jeff Putnam said the idea is a good starting point but he is still confused why the State of Maine restricts their fishermen from fishing.
Jim Henderson asked what are we going to gain? Larry asked do you want to give up some of your bottom outside three miles? There are about 20 Zone G guys fishing there. I know what the guys will say; they won’t want to give up any of their bottom. Jim Merryman said I fish out there all that I can and I don’t see that many Zone G guys out there. Jim Henderson said he would talk with his guys and see what they think. Gerry Cushman said he thinks Zones F & G need to set up a committee and work on this. Sarah said they did have a sub-committee, but no agreement has been reached.
George said the DMR can make smaller maps and send them out to the fishermen in both zones. Jim Henderson said we have started to talk about this as a group in our zone. Joe Fessenden said he would like to come to Zone G and talk about this; this is a huge area and enforceability is like a needle in a haystack. Over time there will be more Mass. boats; there is nowhere near the dragging going on there that there used to be, a lot of guys have fixed gear. Jim Henderson said we’ve been talking about it and we’ll want to meet again. Larry said this is very frustrating. George said this is the way the system is set up. Bob said he would encourage the DMR to work with the two councils.
f. Stricter Penalties
Jon Carter said he had asked that this be on the agenda so we could try to bring a bill to the upcoming Legislature. There is a big cry from the industry for stricter penalties. We had an issue in our zone where a guy had 60 short lobsters; he had a hearing and got six months suspension. Jon presented the Lobster Advisory Council with a copy of letter signed by the Zone B Council stating their concerns. Jon said the letter was drafted to support Marine Patrol and send a message to the Commissioner that we want to see stricter penalties and suspensions. Jon said he knew the letter will not change the outcome but it will send a message.
Jim Henderson said in his area he knows some of the problem is with the DA. Jon said then maybe we need to talk with our Legislators. George said with the law right now some convictions have mandatory suspensions and if you are suspended you have the right to a hearing. I have to make decisions in the best interest of justice; these are some tough things. I probably make it tougher than Marine Patrol most of the time and I think they respect the decisions that are made, the process works pretty well. If you look at my letter with the graph you will see that the number of those types of violations have gone up. Jon said with that, I know where you stand, 62 short lobsters is not a mistake. We need to toughen up the law to have stricter penalties with a major violation. George said with a second offense it’s a mandatory suspension, I think the system works pretty well; we have made some of those suspensions in the summer. Jon said the people in my area have not been hurt by suspension.
Bob said the fines are way out of line; what can we do? George said the maximum fine is set by the legislature and the rest is done in court; people work with the judge to get fines reduced. Bob asked how we can start the process to increase the fines. David said through the Legislature; the scallop industry just did it, but the court can cut whatever deal they want. Gerry said why don’t you get your zone to bring a bill forward. Bob said he thinks we need to move this along and bring it back here.
MOTION: (J. Henderson and L. Knapp) To develop a Sub-committee to look at this process and bring it back to the LAC. All in favor.
Sub-committee members: Jon Carter, Larry Knapp, Jim Henderson, Dan MacDonald and Col. Joe Fessenden.
g. Interstate Transport of Oversized Lobsters
John Drouin said he is looking for support Downeast to make possession of oversized lobsters illegal. We let the Canadian dealers move them along. This is a problem Downeast, if we could put pressure on this it would help; the oversized should be protected by this somehow. We ship 70% of our product across the border, if we can’t do anything about this because of federal law, than maybe we can do something by not allowing them in to our State. Pete said I understand what you’re saying, we don’t want them, we lose money on them and we have to keep them sealed. It was my understanding they had to go by our laws, why can’t you go with the Canadian government and just not allow them.
John said Sam’s Club keeps them and he had talked with Lt. Talbot about this; he said they have been summonsed. Sam’s said they came from a local dealer; I would ask that Marine Patrol check on that. Joe said if you see this please give me a call. These lobsters are a pain, but the way the law works, if they want to buy Canadian lobsters they have to take what’s in the crate, I agree with Pete, this needs to be taken care of by the Canadian government; the State of Maine cannot stop this commerce. John said I disagree. Joe said with the Lacy Act right now they are legal.
Bob said are you proposing that we introduce legislation that we stop possession of oversized lobsters. Gerry suggested that Zone A draft a bill and bring it back to the LAC for support. John said we had a bill and Dep. Commissioner Etnier spoke against it, we have no support if the zone does a bill. Patrice said she had talked with John about this and what we can and cannot do; I don’t think we know what we can do. She said she had asked UM law school to have a legal analyst in Augusta look into it to find out what the law says.
Patrice McCarron and John Drouin will look in to this matter and report back to the Lobster Advisory Council.
5. Old Business
6. Reports and Updates
a. DMR Updates
o Rulemaking
There will be public hearing sometime in June on the red marker, sliver area and flotation devices on the whale rule to catch up with the federal rule. There are seven Lobster Community meetings scheduled throughout the State to discuss what the new rules mean. The TRT will be meeting the end of April in Baltimore.
o Legislation
The legislature is winding down, there where no lobster bills this session; they are looking at $800,000. in budget reductions
o Patrol Update
The Colonel reminded fishermen to get their 2008 trap tags ordered and on their traps by the June 1st deadline as there will be no exceptions or grace period approved by the Bureau of Marine Patrol for the 2008 season. Joe said that tag orders are taking 5-6 weeks to arrive once they are ordered.
b. Zone/Industry Issues – Summaries
Zone A: We hopefully will have a meeting in May, there is support in Zone A for trap reduction and for higher limit of exit ratio’s as long as students are left alone.
Zone B: We had a meeting last night and had a full house with double tagging being talked about as well as the enforcement thing.
Zone C: Hurry up and wait.
Zone D: Nothing.
Zone E: Everyone is discouraged in my zone.
Zone F: Not much going on.
Zone G: Guys are setting traps and the price is poor.
6. Set Next Meeting Date and Agenda
The date for the next Lobster Advisory Council is tentative for June; hold open based on the TRT.
MOTION: (E. Thomas and G. Cushman) To adjourn. Unanimous.
The meeting adjourned at 7:50 pm.
