Maine Scallop Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
April 30, 2009
Ellsworth City Hall
Attendance:
SAC Members: Dana Temple, Dave Sinclair, Doug Wood, Dana Morse, Terry Gray, Barry Huckins, Junior Kelley, Andy Mays.
DMR Staff: George Lapointe, Togue Brawn, Jay Carroll, Kevin Kelly
Audience: Jimmy Ackley, Dennis Sargent, Arthur Alley, Travis Fogg, Russell Bray, William Sookup, Frank Jones, Scott Ingraham, Jeff Boyce, Annie Tselikis, Laurie Schreiber, Kurt Cromer, Brian Soper, Brian Gordius, Maurice Alley, Sherm Hoyt, Bill Trotter.
1:18 Meeting Convened
Dana Temple explained the rules in terms of public comment opportunities. Welcome and introductions were conducted.
Barry made a motion to approve minutes of the last meeting (Feb 13), Andy Second, Unanimous.
Togue went over the timeline of where we are in terms of meetings, process, etc. Six area meetings were held, this is the time for the SAC to start working on their recommendation so they can deliver it at the next SAC meeting.
Dana T: We have two topics to discuss: season length, closures. Need to start on closures first.
Andy: In my area, Eastern side of Casco passage to Gouldsboro Bay, we’re looking at a diverse assortment of closure types, from what I’ve seen this year and what other fishermen are saying, divers and draggers, we can’t find a scallop in deeper water. Every suitable habitat area is in shoal waters, mouth of inlets, or beginning of harbors. Same in Gouldsboro Bay, saw sublegal stuff, Skillings River, another place that seems to be doing better than everywhere else. There’s an area in the mouth of Somes Sound, in back of some of those islands, it’s small, but we’re seeing improvement there. The
Sound is different, tightly enclosed, but deep, muddy, not ood(???) within that area except in the opening of it. In Blue Hill Bay, one of the things were’ observing is that they’re mostly in enclosed bodies of water. With diminished populations, still seem to be able to spawn, get seed developing. I could never envision a day where there would be no scallops in the old Swan’s Island closure, but it’s really discouraging. I’ve fished there one day once a year for the last five years, it’s never improved.
At different meetings, maybe you have diverse areas, but my area, if you’re not up inside, forget about it.
Dave: Are you seeing a meat quality problem?
Andy: It’s all good.
Dave: It’s more of a western problem I guess.
Andy: when you get away from shore, scallops are dying of old age, a lot of places you wouldn’t fish there before, there weren’t enough, but now when you start peddling them yourself, you can work on smaller amounts, a lot are 10 count scallops but you have to take three minutes to shell them or you’ll cut them in half. Nothing small out there.
Doug: When you say quality, do you mean blue, gray meats?
Dana M: The info I have suggests if they have to expend a lot of energy, due to a lot of boring, or pollution, or anything that weakens the defenses of the scallop, the energy comes out of the meat, it becomes gray color.
Doug: But a lot are good size.
Dana T: Are you seeing it anywhere now?
Doug: No, saw it late 90’s, part of 2000s, there was a tremendous amount of them.
Andy: To clarify, we have seen quite a few shell blisters in around the meat, but that didn’t affect the meat. Sometimes it worked into the meat. I think the blisters might have to do with age of scallops.
Broke to look at the charts and to determine the best way to solicit/allow comments.
Reconvened:
Barry, as the only SAC member who attended all the meetings, went up to the large chart. He started at the eastern most portion of the coast outside Cobscook (since there were no Cobscook fishermen in the audience).
Starting at Quoddy head, there’s not much from there to Bog Brook, so it being closed for three years, wouldn’t hurt much.
Doug: I disagree, I think there’s good areas. It’s a fairly productive area.
Kevin: It’s declined since 06. Low density.
Doug: Are there any places that haven’t declined?
Answer: Eastern Penobscot Bay to Western Blue Hill Bay was up a bit.
Andy: That correlates with what guys that fish there have said.
Kevin: Everywhere else was down. From eastern Blue Hill Bay to Quoddy Head, wasn’t much positive. Were some small signs of areas where seed was coming in, including Gouldsbor Bay, Rogue Island,
Junior: They’re gone.
Kevin: When I’m talking seed, I mean 2 inches and less.
Dana T: The point we’re trying to make is, what we’ve got in the eastern part of the state, it’s too much closed if we accept them all. If you guys think that it’s not, if you want to live with those closures, that’s fine, but this is an effort to be fair to fishermen as well. If you have other approaches to what you see up here, now is the time to say it. We will come to some conclusions today.
The question was raised: will these areas be closed to urchins as well as scallops:
Togue: We can’t guarantee that.
It was decided to leave Quoddy Head to Bogg Brook closed for the time being.
Next one: Little River in Cutler Harbor – isnt’ that full of salmon pens anyway?
Doug: From there to the east side of Jonesport, you’re going to see fishing all along there. It isn’t as good as it has been.
Dana T: Do you think it is good?
Doug: I think there are better places.
Kevin: I think we did one tow, it wasn’t very significant. Cutler Harbor itself, don’t feel it is as good a place to close,
Kevin: Do they fish in the harbor?
Doug: Not in the harbor. I don’t see the point.
Audience: Arthur and I fish there a lot.
Maurice: How about Little Machias Bay, the old man in to Cross Island, how about that? Barry: That would be better than Cutler Harbor, bigger scallops there.
Doug: - I thought about that. Do you want to leave Cutler Harbor open, close the next? It is a seed area, if left alone, Cutler is a seed area, would come back.
Dana T: Again the question: is it going to close a productive area?
Doug: How would you draw it so it’s enforceable?
Jay – it’s easy to see. From Long Point to Western Head, would encompass all of Cutler Harbor.
Barry – I would close from Western Head to long Point, If an officer is on that point, he’s sighting south. Jay – draw due south. Cutler Harbor, Little River, Marine Patrol thinks it’s OK. Any other comments before we move on?
Annie: Is the transiting language issue a problem? Stowing drag if you’re getting there is that a pain in the ass for people?
Junior – The way it’s written is fine - the wardens have been good.
Jay – I would talk to your officer, I would talk to your local guys.
Dana T: you’re here because you’re concerned about the fishery, have to assume that you’re going to do what we need to do to bring it back.
Doug: If these areas come back like we’re hoping they will, if they can go through there with their drags hooked up, there will be problems.
George: The enforceability is going to be there regardless. As we move forward, the commitment has to be to deal with the local issues as best possible, there will be things like Doug mentioned, when things get better, we might have to change how we enforce it, but we’ll cross that when we come to it.
Togue: We can change language transit language as we move forward.
Dana T: The next area seems like a bunch of closures that are stuck together.
Barry – all the way from Western Head all the way to Big Machias. Roque Bluff, all of them.
Junior, then it jumps and starts right then up the reach.
Dana: (in response to audience members trying to cut in) Let’s open this to Council comments first.
Doug - How much do we want to close?
Andy: From what I recall, everyone gave up their sweet spots.
Dana T: It’s all fairly good ground. Let’s have some suggestions. I think we have to go back to the charts that were done at that meeting.
Note taker breaks to get charts…
Upon return, Dana M is discussing why we need to include areas with fewer scallops as well as areas where there are decent populations. Andy: there has been no fishing pressure in areas where used to be incredibly productive.
Dana: Since we can’t predict what might happen, we’re looking for trends. In absence of strong data points what we’re looking for is trends. How do we find trends, we have variety of habitat trends, variety of densities. Don’t know what’s going to happen, we need to be able to capture that trend, then to do more study.
Dana M: I agree with you it would be nice to know all this. In light of resource in so many areas, looking for productive areas now makes the most sense. We should put most of the stress on that. Let’s concentrate on areas that have been most productive in the short term.
Brian Soper: One thing I wanted to say about the area in Casco Bay, area was chosen because scallop density is at least two to four times as many scallops in the area than the areas that we didn’t close, the reason we closed these is because we can’t take the scallops. Because it has poor meat, does it still produce spat? Reason it was proposed, it has the most scallops in Casco Bay in it. It was a harvestable area, I harvested it about 8 years ago. To go down and look at them, they look wonderful. We should be looking at why all these scallops are sick. Maybe there are water quality issues, established beds, always there, don’t move. Do these weak scallops produce more scallops?
Doug: They react different than they do off Gloucester. We may never figure it out.
Brian: Do you feel there is a problem with meats on the coast of Maine.
Doug: We do know if we have closed areas and we leave some broodstock there, we will put spat into the water column, that’s where we are today.
Dana Temple: Gentlemen we have gone through this area, should we move on?
Barry: This area here, if we come from Dry Rock, West Side of Bucks Harbor. Good seed in here, comes back fast, rest of this, Little Machias, Big Machias,
Maurice: Should we be closing all of little machias bay? Answer, yes.
From end of Cross island, outside of Cross Island would be open, all closed.
Maurice: I figured out from the old man to the eastward. Doubleshots. From there, to cross island narrows
Barry: from Bucks Head, to most northerly point of cross island, everything north of that through cross island narrows, eastern point of cross island to double shots .
Jay: all that is fine. Those coves, those are good.
An audience member expressed frustration that the SAC was starting at the East and working West – he wanted them to skip to his area.
Annie: Process – guys that are here, let’s let them do it, then let them go home.
SAC agreed to do so
Stonington guys –
This is the northwestern end of Eggemoggin Reach, got written down as all good seed stock, not much in the bridge, back and forth, but on the northern end, it’s very good. We proposed a line end of Naskeag Point, Hay island ledge buoy, go right straight across to the tips of Stinson’s Neck. Good recruitment, good seed all through here, up in here, spots where there’s seed. Good tide flow, very easily enforceable, roads on both sides, all on this end, down to Cape Rosier, can drive up to Pumpkin Island, very easily enforceable. We figured 14 miles by 2, it’s 28 square miles. There’s seed all in Bucks Harbor. Down by the bridge, not so much. But has been productive in past years. Both ends are good.
Penobscot Closure – upper Penobscot, pollution. What else could it be?
Southeast harbor we had closed – tons of small stuff. Been there year after year. Not too much diving activity. If we close this up, eventually, good tide flow, very enforceable, this could seed in the area all around Stonington. No doubt it will work. Left alone, I think five years time that would be a gold mine.
Jeff Boyce: lot’s of seed in that area. Wally Gray did the survey, found out where the hot spots are, and devastated it in a 10 foot drag. Conflict of interest. We get maybe 3 weeks to a month of pretty good fishing, that cut us back a week. You shouldn’t be able to fish if you do the survey.
Terry: Blue Hill Harbor, beginning of the season for the last three years, they’ve done it, salt pond, small scallops there, every year we take off bigger ones, leave small ones. A lot of small scallops. All seem to be fairly healthy, as far as having a relatively good population, I feel it would have the same effect. The majority of small seed scallops have been doing real well in Blue hill Harbor and the past year, found a lot of seed right off these ledges. There’s a huge amount of scallops here in close enough proximity, should be fairly good fertility rate, we’ll see recruitment along both sides, back through Pond Island and Casco, it’s a little bit larger – I feel same way about this as you do about SE Harbor.
Andy – rather than circle a small area, we pointed it across there. I think we were looking at short term paycheck rather than long term paycheck. It’s small enough area, not many fish up there.
Audience: Don’t make the areas too big, that’s a huge bay. Keep it in the Shoal waters, got the right ideas, keep them in shoal water.
Frank: listen to what he says, good productive areas.
Annie: when you look at it from a broad view. That’s a decent size. That’s a quarter of Blue Hill Bay.
Frank: you go back 40 years ago, on the east side of long island, deep water that goes down through there, it was saturated in scallops. If that spot feeds the bay, that’s left alone, who knows, maybe that will happen again. If that spot is feeding this whole bay, and is left alone, it may come to life. If you close these spots off, within three years, you’ll see life.
Dana: If it seeds these areas.
Kevin: Two areas we did see some density of seed, real little guys were in Blue Hill harbor and Southeast Harbor. Way up inside of Blue Hill Harbor. It verifies this.
Arthur Alley: We have such a small area, 2-3 guys fishing it, it’s quite small. There are scallops on the shore line here. Couple good areas, we worked just this shoreline here. I’ve taken it further up into Spruce Head. This is to still give us a little fishing. We were all pinched in this one area. This is 85% of where I worked. That’s where the seed is in my area. This survived.
Dana’s notes in italics: There was an area around Spruce Head outlined on the local chart, and put up on the large chart.
Brian Gordius had some suggestions about Somes Sound. Waited till Andy got back. MDI flynns ledge across to cranberry, and Cross Gut. Bunkers Head to Seal Harbor. Porcupines eastward to a point on the eastern short – almost due east. Annie has coordinates and lines available, already sent to togue?
Casco Bay –
B Soper – area chosen is abundant in scallops, but they are small meated, and low quality over the last 5 or 6 years. The meats are not grey, but not good quality, small and pull always from the shell. The big area contains both diver and dragger area. The big area is enforceable too, can see from land. Few fishermen in that area, a few draggers and 1 or 2 divers. In western Casco Bay, meats are big. A science question would be to go to those areas in July and August and do a gonadal index; to see if the scallops are in reproductive condition, even if the meats are weak. Do a look to check on egg size as well. Inside Cliff Island is very productive, and good for both divers and draggers – it’s been identified as an area to close. Chandler Cove is productive and a good place to close. Feels that if the outer area of the big space is enforceable, then Chandler and Cliff Island are enforceable. Hussey sound is less desirable to close – not much there.
Some discussion if the 4 small areas in W Casco Bay are enforceable the way they are written now – do they need to be consolidated to be enforceable?
Drew an outline of Harpswell sound, following buoys out to the south and west, up to the top of the river, where the scallop end – enforceable and good density of scallops. Drawn in red on the local chart.
As it stands, N area of Cliff Island is not enforceable.
Tibbets to Schoodic:
Close west bay. Dyers bay – close the whole bay, a few scallops there and some seed. Addison River,close an area north of the line on the chart. If other closures stand, don’t bother with the closure of Pigeon Hill Bay. Kevin agrees seed is in Gouldsboro Bay.
Discussion about size of closures – smaller vs. larger. DMR would prefer to have one whole bay closed vs. parts of several, even if in close proximity. Why not close all of Gouldsboro and close Pigeon Hill and Dyer Bays? On the chart right now, all of Pigeon Hill is closed off.
Gouldsboro: discussion on closing upper parts of Bays.
Brian Soper: I believe it will never be opened up again.
Doug: It’s not just DMR that wants this. A lot of us on the SAC want this to come back, and we’re in favor of it.
Dana: Heads of all these bays closed – what do you think?
Doug: this is something different than we’ve heard – you’re willing to leave them closed for longer.
Dennis: three years, you might see something. There’s great tide in all those places.
Ed: this is a big enough area.
Dennis: I thought at the onset of all these meetings, there was going to be management zones, and enhancement areas, that’s why we came up with this as enhancement areas.
Question of area management. Dennis – why was this changed? Area management discussion ensued, concerns expressed at the area meetings over what it might mean, opposition to losing the mobile element.
Doug: They have picked some good seed areas, all along talking about closed areas, we wanted to recognize seed areas, give us biggest bang for the buck the soonest. Maybe highly productive smaller areas, we’d be better off than with large areas.
Dana: want a chance to get in touch with Damariscotta or Sheepscot Area – come back with feedback from them.
Doug, Junior, Barry, Maurice. Jonesport Beals Area.
Area they’re talking about – south end of Hickey Island to the Point of Main. A lot of stuff in there. I had a 300 pound day there a few years ago.
We started at Carrying Place Cove, down the reach as far as Pig Island, into Sawyer Cove, then we went up Mason’s bay, below the cable area, all the way up through Jonesboro River and up to Schoppee’s Island.
A question was raised: how long will the season be?
Togue: The Department recommends 70 days again this year.
Dennis: my people would rather have a four day a week season, Monday through Thursday. We didn’t get the 35 days because of bad weather, you can work along through the winter. When you take two months out of the winter, has a devastating effect.
Brian Soper: From divers point of view, they say we can’t split a season, I don’ t know why we can’t do it. I enjoyed the season, working December which is milder, then March which is milder, let the scallops set in January and February, let them set. I never got to harvest what I normally do, didn’t come close. I left a lot of scallops on the ocean floor. I know draggers don’t like this, but I like Jan and Feb off.
Ed: it’s nice not to work January and February, but it’s also nice to Eat. I would rather work four days a week.
Maurice: He said as long as he could steam 45 minutes,(Brian), he could work in 40 mph winds. That’s going to be hard for us in our area. We would like four days a week.
Jimmy: Doug has my proposal:
Doug: A lot of guys agree with it. I never spoke to anyone who doesn’t agree with this. At least 25 people agree with this. At that time, it was five days a week, take off Christmas day and Eve, New years, new years, take off February vacation. I didn’t mention the four day a week plan. But I think that anything along those terms would be OK.
Frank – I like that suggestion right there. Five days a week, that’d be great.
William (white shirt) I like five days a week, don’t like split season, when you’re tied up it’s a hardship.
Dave: I realize I’m in a small minority here, I’ve worked hard to build my charter business, what’s left of it is week-end business, that would completely put me out of business if you go to a Monday through Thursday format.
Dana T: non commercial?
David: yes.
Dana T: George, let me ask you a question – is there any provision that can be made to provide for the week-end business? I’m just asking. I throw it out there. It’s only doing us good. The more people that understand the fishery, the better off we are.
Brian: Been in this fishery a long time, it’s completely controlled by the draggers. Why can’t we have something split for the scallop fishery?
Doug- What’s the advantage?
Brian: I want to work 7 days a week.
George: we will put that in front of marine patrol and see what happens.
Brian: I’d like to hear from divers.
Andy: I see how it might be advantageous, when the season was 130 days long, it was different. I think if anything that would only increase divisions between divers and draggers. I’ll throw this out there – I’d like to have just a scallop license, not having either. As for recreational guys, they always go on the week-ends. That’s when most of them go anyways, then they’re not in the way. It’s easy to keep them corralled, they’re not interfering with the commercial guys. It’s a public resource. I’d say their impact is so small, let them have week-ends.
Junior: I don’t think the non-commericals should be able to go seven days a week.
Terry: One of my concerns of going Monday through Friday, what about our kids. They have Saturday and Sunday off from school. I like to take him out on Saturday or Sunday. That’s a day we get together and go on the boat. That’s part of the tradition we’re trying to preserve. I think we should keep our kids in mind as the days that they can also go.
Dana: let’s table this for now.
Discussion of when to hold the next meeting: May 21, Hallowell, 1:00.
Dave: motion to adjourn, second by Andy. Adjourned at 4:39.
