Maine Scallop Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
February 13, 2009
Ellsworth City Hall
SAC Members in attendance: Barry Huckins, Doug Wood, Junior Kelly, Tim Harper, Andy Mays, Kathy Messier, Dana Morse, Kevin Kelly, Terence Kenny, Dana Temple, George Freeman.
DMR: Togue Brawn, Deirdre Gilbert, David Etnier, Terry Stockwell, Alan Talbot, Jay Carrol, Dale Sprowl (Kevin Kelly).
Public: Annie Tselikis, Dwight Carver, Laurie Schreiber, Brian Gordius, Owen Moody, Scott Young, Bruce Porter, Dennis Sargent, Amos kelley, Tim Doughty, Walt Jessiman, Ikey Dorey, Robert Holland, Kendall Smith, Brennan Spofford, Jimmy Ackley, Ed Fagonde, Farrell Beal, Milton Merchant, Leonard Durkee, Matthew Merchant, Jeff Boyce, Kurt Gomez, Eugene Lymburner, Russell Bray, Sott Ingraham, Seth Walker, Dennis Tozier, Jacob Beal, Nick Faulkingham, Donald Tozier, Eric Hall, Tom Pottle, Randy Newcomb, Paul Cox, Sheila Huckins, Thomas Ciomei, Tim Robbins, Jim Wotton, Travis Fogg, Art Alley, Mike Keating, Gina LeDuc, Bill Hirsch, Maurice Alley, Bill Trotter.
Togue started out with a discussion of the purpose of the meeting. There’s been a lot of confusion concerning all the different meetings. Recently there’s been a public hearing on LD 82 – several people submitted comments. The work session will be coming up Wednesday at 10 am. There was also a public hearing on the emergency closure yesterday
As for today’s meeting the purpose is to present proposals as alternatives to the proposed closures. Also, today we are looking toward the future and the SAC is working on a recommendation for how to divide the coast into different management areas.
We intend to open the fishery in December 2009, if we have conservation areas in place. The closures we enact for the second part of the season go away at the end of March. Looking forward to doing something constructive next year.
Kevin Kelly, Doug Wood made a motion approve minutes
Unanimous approval.
Dana: How many have alternative proposals – 2 people raised hands.
Dana – We need to limit this to improvements to what we have done here already. This is not a time for comment. We have a mandate by the governor to improve what we have through public input. If you bring something up, you need to suggest moving lines, separating areas. Not general comments.
- Togue: The public comment period extends through the end of the day on Tuesday. Then can be submitted in writing. Today is for alternatives.
Sheryl Harper – If you are going to close areas to reseed and restock, take adult scallops that will build a biomass and perhaps spread to other areas
- Dana –Tim harper has offered to do just that, to bring in seed that are determined to be good areas. That’s part of the deal.
Travis Fogg, Sprucehead – is the enhancement for the 35 day closure? No – once areas are decided, closures will be selected for seeding if possible.
Owen moody: If you put the 35 meat count along the whole coast, you don’t need the closures.
Farrell Beal, Beals – I would prefer smaller areas - like the Jonesport Moosabec reach, and seeding that in with juvenile scallops.
- Maurice – if you closed just Moosabec reach, it wouldn’t take 2 days to clean up when you reopen it.
Togue – The majority of people are in favor of smaller closures. Right now, we are just talking about the 35 day season. In the long-term, we are working toward addressing those concerns and crafting much more focused closures based on what we hear.
Dana T – The governor told us that we needed to go back to fishermen and ask for your ideas for improvement to these closures. That’s what we’re discussing right now. can you make it more equitable?
Sheryl H – How did you pick these areas and why?
-Togue: They were originally proposed by an SAC member. The SAC and the Department looked at them, they seemed like logical divisions. Seemed reasonable to accomplish what we were trying to do to rebuild the resource.
- Shouldn’t it based on where scallops are?
- Togue: These were originally proposed as 3 year rotational closures. As you know, we had proposed closing the whole coast. This was an alternative to allow some access, but also provide some protection. They are random.
Why did you add Cobscook Bay?
- Togue: Much of the data that we have is for Cobscook. The port sampling data that we have showed that people were not getting their limit, dragging over small scallops, putting future fishing at risk.
The eastern line is going to make those guys travel too far. From eastern head should be shortened up. Outer shore should be taken away – line moved up halfway. Quoddy head to Cutler. The entire outer shore should be open.
Randy Newcomb, Perry. Open Cobscook Bay and close the outer shore.
Mike Keating – Owls Head. Offers a written proposal for consideration.
Walt Jessiman, Cutler – close from Quoddy head up (Cobscook). Only 35 days left, we’d be lucky to get 20 days on the outside shore.
Amos Kelley, Gouldsboro – supports that recommendation
Travis Fox, sprucehead – already have a closure of 50 days.
Sheryl H – are they closed to other fisheries?
- No.
- This should be addressed in the future.
Scott Young, Winter Harbor – I would like to see at least of Frenchman’s Bay open – at least half of it. Draggers don’t mind depth, but divers do.
Tim Doughty: Open Frenchman’s Bay, but close down 4-5 spots in it. Up in Taunton Bay – have a distance to travel to Gouldsboro. Cut the bay in half for this year.
Close up to Prospect point.
Donald Tozier- I fish in Frenchman’s Bay. This is the first year we’ve been asked to fill out log books, but you did the closures before you even got that information. Not disagreeing with some closures, but should have used the logbooks to determine what should be closed. Nobody in this room is going to fish if there’s nothing for us to make.
-Togue- We won’t have the harvester data for quite a while, and we’ll have nothing to compare it to in terms of past years.
Ed Fagonde – just go with the 35 day season. Otherwise, you’ll just concentrate effort. People are desperate and need to get to work.
- Dana T – but people go where the scallops are. Closures are necessary. They worked offshore.
Brian Gordius, Bass Harbor - Close Blue Hill Bay. From the cable up. Mitchell cove to swan’s island. Six foot drag and lighten up the bale size. May be an idea for the future.
Togue – this is your opportunity to present your ideas to the SAC. If you want to give ideas to DMR, you can do that until Tuesday. Public comment will now be taken only at the request of the SAC.
Scott Ingram, Stonington – in the future, should give us a chart. Instead of all these words.
5 minute break. Charts distributed so people can make their own recommendations.
Mike Keating presented his idea to various SAC members.
We collected charts:
Leave the coast as it is
Leave blue hill open (2)
Close half of each area, diagonally, let fishermen decide which half to leave open.
End of public submission of proposals to the SAC.
Terrence – Casco Bay is a big closure. Not sure in other areas how far up into the river the scallops go. Move northern boundary down, and make it bigger, but then open a section in the center of casco bay so those boats don’t have to steam all the way outside.
On Jaquish Island, run a line out to 3 miles, then come over to junk a port and run a line up inside, either the north or south of Hussey Sound.
Basically, open the center of Casco Bay, extend the closure on either side. A pie shaped piece open in the center.
Barry – The Cobscook closure in conjunction with the Bold Coast closure will put a lot of stress down to Cutler, because they will have to steam down there to fish. Agree with the option to open the shore, from the bridge down. No one drags under the bridge. It’s an enforceable area.
Junior agrees. Andy is inclined to entertain that - has received a lot of comments to that effect.
Kevin – we were instructed to start with the emergency closure, and if we open an area, come up with an equivalent closure.
David – the commissioner is open to looking at whatever the SAC comes up with, it would be nice if it’s equivalent, but George is not wedded to that.
Terry - the commissioner is looking for a template for area management in the future.
Andy – I think the closure of the open shore is a valid concern. Has the CBFA agreed that they want Cobscook Bay closed? No.
Doug – but it’s tough to open all the areas were there are scallops. And I fish those areas really hard.
Motion by Barry, seconded by Junior to vote on opening the outer coast: 9 in favor 2 abstentions
Frenchman’s bay –open half of Frenchman’s bay? In exchange for closing Blue Hill Bay?
Doug – The good part would be, if you do want to do a trade, there have been scallops in Blue Hill Bay in the past so there would be conservation.
Andy – scallops are all marginal around him in Bar Harbor, between 3 and 4 inches. 5 of them got together and agreed to leave it alone. He thought he might go poke around in Blue Hill Bay. Had to go to 5 different spots to get a pail. Winter harbor – Eddie Monet said it sucked. Does think some area in Frenchman’s Bay open in exchange for Blue Hill bay closure is a good trade. There are scallops in Blue Hill Bay.
Development:
Zone C lobster zone line?
Alan – there’s a drag limit line in statute for Blue hill Bay.
Bass harbor head to Pond Island, up to Naskeag? Similar to what Brian Gordius suggested.
Line in Frenchman’s bay - Hancock point to southwest point of iron bound, easterly to grindstone neck.
Andy – Motion to open the upper part of the river from Hancock Point to Ironbound in an easterly direction to Grindstone Neck, and close upper part of Blue Hill Bay from Lopus Point to Pond Island, up to Naskeag
Doug seconded.
Vote – 7 in favor
1 opposed
3 abstentions.
Penobscot Bay suggestion (per Mike Keating) – add a closed area that has already had effort, leave open an area that has had little effort.
From tip of Cape Rosier to Crabtree Point (or whatever Alan recommends), due south to Foster’s Ledge due south to 3 mile line
Tip of owl’s head light due south to foster’s ledge, due south.
Andy – motion to amend the boundaries as drawn – shifting the closed zone
Doug seconded
George – concerned about the size of the opening in the middle of the coast.
But it is basically an equitable trade
He came here with a plan
Support – 11 unanimous
Casco Bay – extend areas on both ends and open a section in the center. There are buoys outside and you can draw straight lines.
Southern boundary to Richmond Island instead of Two Lights? On the other side, from Seguin to five island and straight in. Alan will help to provide the language.
Andy motion to accept the new boundaries in Casco Bay
Seconded by doug
In favor: 10
Opposed: 0
Abstained: 1
Dana T – the changes on this map will be recommended to the commissioner for the 35 day season. When will he make a decision? Tuesday. If he agrees, DMR will draft this as a new emergency rule.
Break, re-convened at 3:05 pm.
Planning for the future – over the past year and a half, there has been a lot of interest in finer scale management, and involving fishermen in the management of those areas. We would like the SAC to develop their recommendations for what the management areas should be. We will bring those lines to the fishermen’s forum. After that, we will have meetings in the management areas to develop closures and possibly other management measures. We will not be talking about closures today.
Some people have talked about the lobster zones, but that doesn’t really work for Zone A. Zone A will need to be subdivided.
Junior – we’d like to divide Zone A into 4 zones. Referring to chart that they came up with at a meeting. These look smaller than the other zones? Similar to E and F.
Bogg brook
Point of Maine
Tibbets’s Narrows
Schoodic Point
Dana – what process did you follow?
- Junior – one meeting, invited fishermen from the whole zone. It was on the news.
Jimmy Ackley – there were several fishermen from all of these areas.
Doug – There was no one there from Machiasport.
Jimmy – Okay, all but one area. Because they cared enough to be there.
Doug – They wanted to have their own meeting, and decide where the lines should be
Jimmy – This is to benefit everyone in this area
Doug – Only 3 people voted in favor of the Bogg Brook line.
Tom Pottle – look at square mileage – that’s what you need to be able to support yourself.
Sheryl – what is the meaning to breaking it up to micromanage smaller zones? Scalloping is a mobile fishery – the lines were originally for fixed gear.
Togue – We aren’t interested in limiting people on where they can fish, we are interested in getting local input on such things as closures. We’re not talking about setting up an area, and then you are stuck there.
Doug – Everyone who fishes in an area should get to have input, not just those who live around the Bay. If you live in Maine and pay your taxes, they go to manage that resource.
Dana – it just makes sense to divide the coast into smaller areas so that we can make management measures that make sense for specific places. We want the input from the fishermen. If you are honest about it, we could accomplish a lot.
Sheryl – If this works, then people are going to try to keep other people out. That’s what happened with the lobster zones.
Dana – Should it just be open to everyone?
Sheryl – Yes, it has worked
Farrell – This is a state fishery. When you start zoning…if you have to do it, use the lobster zones. Don’t divide up zone A. If you do, in the future you’ll be fishing in one of those little zones and you won’t be able to go anywhere else.
Andy – when the SAC was discussing this last summer, we all agreed we didn’t want to let this get like lobsters. It’s different. Limited entry was not to do the lobster thing. We want to provide opportunity to get into it, not to establish some convoluted entry system. Even within the lobster zones, there are districts.
Togue – DMR would like to have it broken down because it is difficult to have statewide management. If we compromise, it makes everyone angry. Look at the coast, see if there are natural boundaries, try to reach consensus in smaller groups. Do we divide Zone A? Do the other Zones make sense? We would like to have significant parts of the coast closed. We think it makes sense to speak to local fishermen and find out what they want. How do we determine conservation closures with local fishermen?
Farrell – likes the idea of districts of Zone A, to get communities to make recommendations. But wants to be mobile.
Doug – I’ve heard 3 different organizations talk about exclusive rights. Andy talked about it today. I’ve heard other people talk about having the rights for the first few weeks of the season.
- Togue – I understand why you are concerned. But there is consensus that local fishermen know where should be closed. So…where are the natural lines? Where should be closed?
- Doug – local management can be putting the fox in the henhouse.
- Togue – It’s going to be co-management. It’s difficult to get input from fishermen. We’re not talking about handing over management to the fishermen of one particular area, we’ll still be developing rules that go through the state, and through the DMR advisory council.
Discussion of merits of measures like meat counts, etc to manage fishing pressure without creating zones. What could happen in the future if zones are created?
Togue: Who thinks the area closures we came up with just now are perfect? OK, so how do we get better information?
Dennis Sergeant – the reason we broke this up into 4 sections is because Zone A is so big. I know where the scallops grow the best in my area (Schoodic to Tibbet’s). This is all that it’s for.
Togue – we are talking right now about closures. Anything we do will require a statewide public hearing. Everyone will still have an opportunity to have input, it just is that this requires a lot more information, and this is how we can collect it.
Sheryl – how many boats are you trying to support, with how many scallops, on what biomass? Need to get better information on how the fishermen act. Not the same as shrimp.
Dana M – I get the sense that DMR and the industry is headed the same way, but the process is causing a problem. The question of where do you want to put the lines may be too soon. I held a small meeting a few weeks ago of about 11 fishermen, and there is interest in area management, but not enough trust. Need to spend more time in local areas to argue things over, let things cook and then come back to the table. Where should the lines be might be the right question, but maybe not now.
- Togue- we don’t have much time before next season.
- Dana – if you have meetings, get a good sense of the lines based on where the industry coalesces. Spend a bit more time locally before trying to push the issue.
Andy – as low as it is now, I believe it can be restored to what it was. Area management doesn’t mean you get to fish your zone for 3 years and then it’s closed, and then the next zone is open.
Where are the licenses? 52% of the licenses are in Washington County.
Togue – just trying to figure out how to break up that number to get input.
Maurice – Ehen you zone it up, creates opportunity to keep people out. Like charging more to fish in Cobscook Bay.
Ed Fagonde – do you have any other tools besides closures?
Enhancement, ring size, drag size – already being used.
Annie – appreciate the work that the department is trying to do. Anything anyone talks about is going to be a stumbling block because the fishery has been unmanaged for years. The licenses dropped because there was nothing to fish for. The people I talk to appreciate that DMR is talking about area management because it captures local input, in a way that has been done before. Huge potential, but very scary at the same time. Remember that the state management process is changeable – that is a huge advantage over the federal process and the council system.
Dana T – if you want to get away from drawing lines, that is fine, but what we are after is a way to get information about particular places. That is all we trying to get. We are not going to exclude anybody.
Togue – Can you suggest 5 or 6 towns in which we should hold meetings? The towns are focal points, to try to collect information.
Farrell – will go along with the 4 lines in the Zone A because it’s just management, not rules. And I ate a brownie, and it was delicious.
Mike Keating – I do agree with breaking up the state with lines to facilitate management. Should use marine patrol to help identify where the resource is.
How much of an area do you need closed to be significant?
- Togue - we just need to hear the argument…10% might be enough if it meets the right criteria. Some areas might want the whole area closed.
- Long time closures?
- Still open for discussion.
May be important seed areas. Look at cable areas.
Cities selected: Rockland, Portland, Machias, Ellsworth, Eastport, Jonesport
Barry motion to accept the towns. Andy seconded.
Vote: Unanimous.
Togue – at the forum session, will explain everything that has happened, talk about the meetings that will occur. Need to have decisions made by August.
Meetings will be in April – will have several months to fine tune things, seems doable.
Enhancement – appropriations request already gone into Michaud, will soon go into the other offices.
Dana – as you go to these meetings, get the word out to people so that they come to meetings prepared. Get a chart, a pen, and draw your areas and be ready to say something.
Sheryl – call them something other than closed areas, so that they understand what you are trying to do.
Will schedule the next meeting over emails
Tim made a motion to adjourn, Andy seconded.
Unanimous to adjourn.
